Global Dimming?

[Mellow]

Saw a good program last night I had Tivo'd, can't remmeber if it was from Nova, Science Channel (which I love) or Discovery Channel (close 2nd) on Global Dimming.

The pollutants we are filling the air with are actually masking the 'Green House' effect as they are cooking off the earth by blocking sunlight. As we do a better job of reducing pollution, that 'masking' will be reduced and global warming will increase, until we do more about the greenhouse gases we put into the atmosphere.

Not getting on a soapbox as I'm not nearly as knowledgable about this as I SHOULD be.

Just looking for opinions and things YOU have done to help. Obviously, by definition, our bikes don't help the situation and my bike in general probably puts out more greenhouse gases than some smaller cars.

But, part of the passion we have here for camping shouldn't 'mask' our love of nature and the environment.

Don't worry, I'm not gonna preach on saving the planet, in fact, we can't save the planet it will be here long before we are gone... but, we can save ourselves, from ourselves.

I found this site that describes some of what I saw on the program:
http://www.globalissues.org/EnvIssues/GlobalWarming/globaldimming.asp

Any opinions?

[Alan]

I'm old enough at 62 to remember when the air was actually dirty. Today's air is so clean that anyone trying to push the "dirty" air agenda is probably just looking for some government handout to pay for their research. I grew up in Chicago when we heated our homes with coal and the trains were still burning coal. About 1956, the city banned the burning of coal and that made a major difference. Over in Gary, IN the steel mills pumped so much sulfur into the air that when it rained, the rain came down as dilute sulfuric acid and would eat the paint off of cars.

So when I read or hear anyone talk about how "dirty" today's air is, I know they are full of $hit and just trying to finance their pet project.

I really appreciate how clean today's air really is and want to keep it that way. But we are into the area of diminishing returns with tighter and tighter air quality controls. Lets keep the present standards, which are working very well and put more effort into other types of cleanup such as hanging all of the idiots that dump their trash on my camping and hiking trails.

[Trekker]

Very well said Alan.

[motomac]

Since Alan and I are both 62 I am an old timer also and can remember when the Mahoning River in Younstown OH caught on fire. The River was so poluted there was no living things in the River and no vegitation along the banks for about 25 yards on each side. Nothing grew along the River. Now it is clear and people fish in it and I'm sure kids probably wade in it, swim, and there are actually trees growing along the banks now. Big turn around since the 50's. So we are turning over a better environment to our Grandkids. Some of the other stuff going on I can't quite get a grip on, such as prayer in school, the ten commandments in public places, and minority groups of all kinds dictating to God fearing Americans what we can and cannot do!!!! Joe put on of those red grimmacing faces in here.

[Trailace]

I'm with Alan on this as well. Global warming and greenhouse gases are bull $hit.

[Big Bandit]

I teach Junior High classes in Technology Education, which is not computers. We consider technology to be every invention of mankind and we discuss the enviromental impact of various technologies. I blows my students minds that there were no enviromental laws in this country until 1969, when I was 9. Prior to that, anyone could dump anything they wanted to into the land, air and water. When San Antonio bought the Alamo Iron Works site for the Alamo Dome the first thing I thought was, boy that place must be polluted. A foundry had been operating on that site for 100 years. Then when they start construction everyone is so suprised that the soil is contaiminated and complains about the extra cost of cleaning up the site, Duh! I am only 46 and I can remember dirty air, but I grew up in southeast Texas, the petrochemical capital of the world, complete with the highest cancer rates in the state of Texas. I graduated form High School and got the heck out of there.

Rod

[mongo]

I am only 44 but I still remember having to throw any fish I caught back, the river water stinking and being black from companies washing coal and letting the wash water go straight back into the river. The river is beautiful now, the only time it stinks is after a hard rain and you smell that fishey smell. Musky, Bass, catfish and other fish are abundant and we've had many a fish fry during summer evenings. I am sure the air quality is better also (I live in WV surrounded by forests can't really answer for the cities). Don't take me as a tree hugger (I am not) but it couldn't hurt to be conservative, I am not saying don't live just don't dump battery acid out on the ground, pour used oil over the creek bank or other obvious things that can't HELP the enviroment. My 2 cents

[Doobage]

I saw that program as well (on Nova). I wouldn't say that green house gasses are BS. But the thing to consider is how much are we contributing vs. nature. A single volcano can put out a years worth of man made pollutants in a single day (when highly active).

And as for "dirty air". Come down to Houston. I'll slice you off some brown air that still floats here daily. Sure, it might not be the dark soot, but it sure ain't healthy. But in a city of 8 million, people are going to have an impact.

How do I try and make a difference? (I believe that was Joe's question)

Collecting rain water to use for watering the garden and potted plants. A single rain shower here (tropical type rains) can produce 50 gallons of water from just one run off spot on the roof. Using the run-off saves a great deal of electricity (not needing to pump extra water into the water towers, or treat the water). It's also better for the plants. In more remote areas where it is dry, this also helps keep the water table from sucking dry.

Only use lights where and when you need them and get everyone in your family doing the same thing. When you leave a room, turn the light off. And if possible use long duration bulbs, like the flourescent ones, or the new white LED's. They use much less electricity and last longer. It saves you significant money and the white LED's are best in that they don't give off that strobe or odd light of a flourescent. And it's something you can do progressively - as bulbs burn out, change them out with the more efficient bulbs.

Store lots of fluids in your refrigerator. It may take awhile to cool it down, but over time it will run your fridge less.

Selective recycling (recycling certain items actually require more energy than from raw materials). Glass however is one that actually uses less energy to recycle.

Don't "shark" in parking lots. That's when people drive around trying to get the closest spot to the front door. If you see a spot, take it, otherwise just park in an available spot at the back and walk the extra 100 feet. If walking that far is too much then you should get a handicap sticker and put those spots to use. If you are concerned about your safety, then you shouldn't be going there in the first place. By not idling your car or driving in endless circles, you'll save some gas and pollute a little less.

Don't remove pollution control systems from vehicles in order to gain the potential extra 5 hp. If you need that extra hp, then lose weight. And if you are in to racing, then get a race car/bike.

Plant some trees. I try to plant a few trees every year. I seem to have an endless supply of oaks and pecan tree seedlings (and my yard is maxed out, so rather than throw them away, I try to give them to friends and co-workers and/or plant a few at parks or in open areas. if you use a triple stake around the tree, it will prevent most mowers from chopping them down. Once they get to about 6 feet they'll just keep growing.

I have some mildly crazy ideas that I'd like to implement, that would cost very little, but probably help out a bit. Such as taking a black garden hose and snaking it back and forth on the back side of my roof over the garage and feeding it down into my water heater. During the summer, the hose would easily pre-heat the water to 120 degrees. That saves the water heater from needing to heat up 50 degrees, during midday usage.

More expensive measure are better insulation, such as double plate argon filled windows (mine are old and leak like crazy).

If you want more ideas, just ask.

[Trekker]

All great ideas Doobage, and most are what a lot of us already do. We recycle, we conserve energy, we walk/ride bicycles instead of drive when possible. Many of the suggestions you present are just plain common sense, plus make for good economics. And it's a good point that 8 mil people will have a major impact. My only complaint with the "facts" of global warming is it's never enough! Leftist (not liberal) policies supported by junk science has been grabbing the headlines for many years now. Balance & compromise doesn't appear to be an option. I could go on, but I won't.:D

[Doobage]

I will certainly agree that it is very difficult for us to understand what impact we are having on the climate overall since it has many variables and building a comprehensive model is extremely difficult.

I think if we want to look at major things:

The EPA recently increasing the amount of mercury that can be legally polluted seems like a bad idea. Last I read, my body didn't suddenly improve on it's ability to ingest mercury.

The Healthy Forest Initiative is not healthy for forests. It's an excuse for logging and dividing national forests we set aside as "untouchable". Talking to nearly any fire fighter experienced with wild fires and they'd agree that for a fire break in a windy forest to be any good, you'd need about a mile wide "break".

Drilling for oil in places that are set aside as protected lands are bad ideas. Especially when there is plenty of technology that can be readily implemented to automobiles to make them much more efficient. Oil companies are horrible on how they abuse land. And even when they are monitored, the simple fact that roads are put in place enable people to travel with vehicles in that area, which then creates infrastructure. Once a road is made it rarely goes away.

Even more important is reversing the trend of bigger, heavier and more powerful vehicles. Do people really need luxury SUV's? Those seem like a contradiction in design. Many automakers use the excuse that they don't want to lighten the frame because of the risk of heavier vehicles. Break the trend already. If you don't have a reason for a SUV, get something that fits your needs, not your image.

Personally I think the U.S. should be spending much more money on the super-science rather than subsidizing oil companies that are already having record breaking profits. Implementing C60 (bucky ball) wires for carrying electrical current would save billions of dollars and diminish pollution (not to mention better computers, body armor, medical tools).

And recently another significant step was made towards Fusion development. This week it was announced that a problem with plasma containment was resolved, taking us closer to a much better energy solution. Unfortunately we decided doing that internationally was a better idea than building it ourselves (ITER). And that only delays things that much more.

And if ya'll really want to be freaked out, read about quantum entanglement. Some of the proposals submitted to NASA are quite stunning and very feasible.

[STeveGray]

Well, Doobage, you sent me scurrying off to Wikipedia to learn about Buckyballs. Interesting stuff but TOTALLY out of my field.

Lots of good stuff. I'm always mildly entertained by the fact that even at the gym, where people are going for the express purpose of exercise, they still all park in the spots closest to the door. Human beings are endlessly fascinating bundles of contradictions.

Anybody seen Inconvenient Truth, yet? I haven't, but just the concept that a movie could be made about this topic has peaked my curiosity.

[Doobage]

I haven't seen it, but probably will eventually.

I'm curious if it is more about fact or if it's mostly spin.

Back to super-science. If I were to wager on the three most significant changes to the world and humanity for the next 100 years it would be mastery of C60, nanotech, and most importantly quantum tech. Quantum Entanglement alone will uncork a vast array of abililities (making today's super-computer clusters (Beowulf clusters) look like an abacus by comparison). It will elminate the need for relay satellites, it's absolute encryption. And it's calculating abilities will help us in medicine and particle physics to jump years ahead. The instantaneous relay enables probes and/or manned craft to communicate immediately regardless of distance.

It's really very freaky. Einstein hated the notion of entanglement (he called it "spooky action at a distance") because it bypassed the general theory of special relativity.

If you're confused, don't feel bad....it only gets less sensible.

[Mellow]

Wow, I've got to start reading more...

I am happy to announce my girlfriend is getting rid of her SUV (Mazda Tribute) this weekend for a new Civic (30/40mpg city/hwy). Her SUV isn't huge by any means compared to the typical Texas Soccer mom assault vehicle.. But, it's affordable, makes sense and will cut down on how much gas is consumed. I have a Focus which isn't as good as the Civic on gas but it's not bad, maybe 30 in city if I take it easy in traffic... but, then I have to worry about someone shooting at me... :(

I think once battery technology gets better and getter the electric vehicles will take off more, the hybrids are a good transitional step but they are still out of some people's budget and, using the Civic as an example, some non-hybrids are getting some great mpg numbers.

I like the barrel under the rain spout idea.... but lately, would just have dust in it.:mad:

I have slowly been replacing my home bulbs with the more efficient options, I have 4 spotlights in the living room and they used to go out all the time. Now, I just have two of them on and it creates a nice romantic glow for the GF and I...

Thanks for all the comments, this is a great topic.

[STeveGray]

If you're confused, don't feel bad....it only gets less sensible.

Confused? Not at all. I think that, in order to be confused, new information has to somehow conflict with or not fit in with your current store of information on the topic. Since my current level of information is zero, I'm not confused... I'm just totally ignorant. :confused:

"There has been an alarming increase lately in the number of things about which I know nothing." -Ashleigh Brilliant

[Doobage]

Yes, I'll concede that I made a global comment concerning which lands were untouchable. Only certain areas (reserves and parks).

I just don't like the idea of cutting down "old" growth forests. Those areas are well established habitats. Germany does a fairly good job and preserving their wilderness and they have a high population density. Where I live in Houston...it's sprawl like there is no tomorrow. I have to ride for almost 2 solid hours at 70 miles per hour to get beyond the concrete. Hopefully we'll reach a point where the distance costs more than the time, cost and effort to rebuild the bad/old sections of town that could be reclaimed.

As for lumber, I'm all for taking unused lands and creating forests - as if growing a crop. The problem is that it is long term profit with some risk. And nobody wants to wait 20 years (or longer) for their money. I appreciate the fact that logging companies attempt to replant more than they cut, but I'd prefer they leave old stuff alone (and the old stuff is the most profitable).

What I'd really like to see (especially down here in Houston) is a decrease in the use of wood fences. Down here a wood fence will easily rot within 3 years. And by 10 years they are almost all lying down in pieces. Some people try to treat their fences, but it is nearly impossible to keep them from rotting unless they are marine treated lumber. And since we typically have a hurricane or flood once a decade, even that stuff takes a physical beating.

Most people will argue about security...but anyone that has ever hopped a fence knows that it is of little effort to hop one. And once inside it's impossible for anyone else to see what's going on. Iron wrought fences can be much more difficult to climb and are certainly harder to hide behind.

If you want to slow a thief or have privacy, there are plenty of natural alternatives that can make it very difficult to get through (visually or physically). Holly bushes grow well down here and simply planting that in choice locations will have a larger effect on who tries to break through.

In summary, I'd prefer to see the price of wood go up so that people respect what it is that they are using. Too often I see people buy more than they need and throw away the rest.

Additionally I'd like to see more scrap wood recycling places. Whole homes could be beat with what people throw away around here.

I can't help it...I'm a tree hugger. Okay, well not that extreme, but I do like em'.

[Doobage]

LOL@confused.

That's exactly the problem with quantum mechanics. It seems to contradict everything we think about in the macro/newtonian view of things. Things can be here and not there, or there and not here, but with quantum mechanics they can ALSO be here AND there, or not here NOR there.

Excellent camp fire topic after you've had some "good stuff".

[STeveGray]

LOL@confused.

That's exactly the problem with quantum mechanics. It seems to contradict everything we think about in the macro/newtonian view of things. Things can be here and not there, or there and not here, but with quantum mechanics they can ALSO be here AND there, or not here NOR there.

Excellent camp fire topic after you've had some "good stuff".

OK Doobage. You have a standing invitation. If (when) we ever camp together you can educate me on this while we imbibe around the campfire. I enjoy having my brain stretched and, on this topic, it will be very easy to stretch it! Just have mercy on me and remember I'm a rookie. :o